<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:slash="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/"
	>

<channel>
	<title>Web Columns &#187; Notes from Forney&#8217;s Shop</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/category/notes-from-forneys-shop/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.shopbotblog.com</link>
	<description>ShopBot Blogs</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 09:27:54 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<language>en</language>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1</generator>
		<item>
		<title>That First Project and More Thoughts</title>
		<link>http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2008/07/that-first-project-and-more-thoughts/</link>
		<comments>http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2008/07/that-first-project-and-more-thoughts/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>John Forney</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Notes from Forney's Shop]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shopbottools.com/?p=1017</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been a little busy in the shop, so I&#8217;m afraid this post is a bit belated. But linked below is the ShopBot Part File for the screw/misc holder promised in my first web column. As you may be able to see in the first photograph, I simply used screws to hold down the  ...
<p>Continue reading >>> <a href="http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2008/07/that-first-project-and-more-thoughts/">That First Project and More Thoughts</a></p>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been a little busy in the shop, so I&#8217;m afraid this post is a bit belated. But linked below is the ShopBot Part File for the screw/misc holder promised in my first web column. As you may be able to see in the first photograph, I simply used screws to hold down the 40 wide (x) by 14 high (y) piece of ½ inch Baltic Birch while it was being cut. Since I was going to sand the final product I used an old piece of wood. I glued and screwed the ends and bottom together. You can see from the pictures that the new holder is much nicer than the old one … alas I made a gift of it to a close friend of mine. But it will be easy to cut another using the same Part File.</p>
<p><img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-998" title="forney_02_01a" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/forney_02_01a.JPG" alt="forney_02_01a" width="270" height="202" /> <img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-999" title="forney_02_02a" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/forney_02_02a.JPG" alt="forney_02_02a" width="287" height="201" /></p>
<p>The end pieces in the file are smaller than the two that I took the picture of. After it was cut and assembled I thought them too high and redesigned the part file. Also I cut the bottom on my table saw and omitted it from the file. Seemed quicker than routing it. The measurements are guide lines for under cutting the bottom so you can get it and glue to fit in the dadoes. The dowel is easier to buy and install than cutting and mortising a square handle. I made the hole 1 1/4&#8243; and a little touch up with sand paper might be required to get it to fit.</p>
<p>Click here to download ready-to-cut Part File for John’s Screw Holder (and PartWizard File).</p>
<p>During April I spent three days at the sign show in Orlando. Sign people are sure different from woodworkers. The color is intense at a sign show. John&#8217;s Rule Number One is “Just because you can doesn&#8217;t mean you should”. Some of the large format printers were printing out what can best be described as a “riot of color”. While I was wandering the hall and bemoaning the fact that I hadn&#8217;t brought sunglasses with me, I started to consider the elements of good taste in design. Now while it may be true that many of the exhibitors needed to show us how much their machines can do, I was struck by the fact that the few signs that seemed to be well designed attracted me, while the garish got a quick head shake. It is also true that as a woodworker color is secondary to most of my designs. But on a deeper level I started wondering what really constitutes good design.</p>
<p>All of following reflects my opinions and yours may differ. For me it seems to be the best forms are those that simply and adequately address function. A chair with 12 legs isn&#8217;t as elegant as a four legged chair or 3 legged stool. A simple well constructed joint is much more pleasant and satisfying than a complicated one that over engineers the application. A simple tapered leg pleases me more than a carved ball and claw. I use a lot of inset doors and drawers built in simple shaker style so it is easy to see my tastes. And while I have done jobs requiring many steps of built-up molding, some over 18 inches high, a simple flat ¼ inch thick by 1¼ high molding on my own Hickory, tung-oiled, kitchen cabinet uppers, is the right finish for me. I am not trying to say that dropping all foo-foos (my terminology for garish and overly complicated trim) is always the correct approach. However, if the basic piece isn&#8217;t pleasing and elegant on its own, hanging a lot of foo-foos isn&#8217;t going to help. Of course, I don&#8217;t particularly like arched, cathedral or bat wing doors. I have gone back to old clients houses where I have built and installed kitchens over a quarter century ago and I am still pleased with how they look: Timeless and understated, where the form was dictated by the function. As Judge Mathis would say, “That&#8217;s what I&#8217;m about”. I&#8217;m not interested in changing your products but perhaps a close look at what you are doing that could be simplified would be in order.</p>
<p>Now to a whole new tack: Most of you readers have or will be getting a CNC machine. I strongly recommend a ShopBot (not a major surprise to be sure). It isn&#8217;t because my machine doesn&#8217;t dream of waking up as a $200,000 Komo or Thermwood, but it’s that a ShopBot can be paid for quickly, is well tested, sturdy and can be used as a UPS and FedEx package holder when not in use and not worry me that it isn’t always running. That brings me to how I feel about software for the ShopBots. I have a few recommendations and thoughts that may be of some help to you. The following is a list of the software that I use and some pros and cons of each.</p>
<p>PartWizard 2</p>
<p>ArtCAM Insignia</p>
<p>ArtCAM Pro</p>
<p>Vector Cad Cam</p>
<p>VCarve Pro</p>
<p>PhotoVCarve</p>
<p>The ArtCAM products all have a similar interface. They vary only by the number of icons and functions. The left side menu and right side drawing area took a little getting used to but is a great help for design. I particularly like the wizard approach to the software. Why should I have to do two separate functions to accomplish what is in my mind a single procedure? Since I do a lot of inlay work, I really like the inlay wizard, though I think it should go further and give me both tool paths with only one input. Now the “Inlay Wizard” is only available in the Insignia and Pro programs but the ability to do inlays is also in present in PartWizard, just a little less automatically. ShopBot has a white paper that gives you the info necessary (Doing Inlays with PartWizard). For 3D work Pro is outstanding and contains all the functions in Insignia and PartWizard. Great programs and you can&#8217;t go wrong with any of them.</p>
<p>Now the cons: They are a little weak on some of the CAD functions that are available in other straight CAD programs. Take arcs for an example. We frequently may want to draw an arc where we know the cord or distance from beginning to end and the height in the center. In most CAD programs, creating an entity with this information is easy, but is difficult for me in ArtCAM. There is also no snapping function in ArtCAM.</p>
<p>Vector CadCam is the program that everyone loves to hate.</p>
<p>Vector is a great machining package. I own and use version 9.4. It does a great job for drawing and manipulating drawings. Snapping is a snap, as well as changing order and moving the axis to another part of the drawing. By being able to move the coordinate axis to a new part of the drawing I am able to move items and put in new items relative to the new axis. More often than not, I know where I want something only in relation to something else. It is very easy to move or copy to a new point instead of having to figure the math from a static axis or only 5 points. Trimming and combining items is very easy as well as copying around a point.</p>
<p>The Cons for Vector are terrible documentation and a non-standard way of doing everything.</p>
<p>My recommendation is to find some early ShopBotter that hates the program and buy it cheap from them. Plan a long learning curve but if you put in the work you&#8217;ll be glad you did.</p>
<p>VCarve Pro is an excellent all-round product for general day-to-day 2D routing with excellent 3D VCarving and engraving tools that transform designs into beautiful carvings and signs. This software has an easy to learn interface and the high quality 3D model simulation which shows exactly what the router will cut. You can estimate how long it will take with a built in function. It&#8217;s requires a little fiddling with to get it to match your machine but worth the effort..</p>
<p>Recent projects with VCarve Pro and Vector Clip Art</p>
<p><img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-1008" title="P8170079" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/P8170079.JPG" alt="P8170079" width="205" height="162" /> <img class="alignnone size-full wp-image-1007" title="P8170075" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/P8170075.JPG" alt="P8170075" width="214" height="162" /></p>
<p>Also a small add on product, PhotoVCarve which works in conjunction with VCarve Pro or as a stand alone program, adds another dimension to what I can do with the router. This little package routes amazing 3D lithophanes, engraves photographs with a V bit and carves 3D designs from grayscale images. The results can be combined with VCarve Pro designs. This allows you to take a jpeg or bmp photograph and combine it with all the options in VCarve Pro. Vectric products offer excellent value for your money and output in ShopBot Part File format. Money well spent in my opinion</p>
<p>Looking at the negatives for VCarve Pro, the CAD design tools are weak and component design really needs to be done in another program.</p>
<p>If you have questions and would like me to try to answer them, please send them to me at my ShopBot email. I’ll try and answer questions in future web columns.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2008/07/that-first-project-and-more-thoughts/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Solid Surface Fabrication: Part 1</title>
		<link>http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2008/03/solid-surface-fabrication-part-1/</link>
		<comments>http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2008/03/solid-surface-fabrication-part-1/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:38:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>John Forney</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Notes from Forney's Shop]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shopbottools.com/?p=992</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>This will be a series of articles on Solid Surface Fabrication, from Layout to installation. This is the first article and covers Measuring to Edge Build-up. [Download dxf file with parts that make the stands.]</p> Measuring and Layout <p>I use the Bosch Digital Protractor, quality squares and straight edges for measuring and layout in  ...
<p>Continue reading >>> <a href="http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2008/03/solid-surface-fabrication-part-1/">Solid Surface Fabrication: Part 1</a></p>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This will be a series of articles on Solid Surface Fabrication, from Layout to installation. This is the first article and covers Measuring to Edge Build-up. [Download dxf file with parts that make the stands.]</p>
<h5>Measuring and Layout</h5>
<p>I use the Bosch Digital Protractor, quality squares and straight edges for measuring and layout in the house. Since most of my jobs include cabinets I have built and installed I can start with cabinets that are plumb, square and level. I use the Bosch Protractor to get the corner angle to use on the ShopBot. Normally I will use two straight edges in the corner so that I get a longer area to measure. Placing two 1 1/2&#8243; x 8&#8242; pieces of plywood on edge in the corners will even out small dips that can influence the angle. I have used different methods of holding these to the wall including tape and screws but I find that recruiting two people to hold them is the easiest. Other than that a couple of small blocks screwed in studs to hold the plywood is sufficient. The digital readout gives me the best chance of getting an accurate angle since a .3 degree error will result in 5/8 &#8221; run out in 10 feet. It is critical that the measurements should be at the height of the counter. Checking plumb on the walls is important since any run out there can affect the distance from the wall for the counter tops. The straight edges will show studs that are bowed (both inwards and outwards) that will affect the top and back splash. All of this is crucial since bad measurements will almost guarantee a bad result. Also check the route into the room to make sure that the top made at the shop will fit not only the cabinets but pass through any openings. On L or U shaped tops you need to be able to navigate stairs without hitting the ceiling and also make any turns. Nothing can ruin a day like being unable to get a completely fabricated top into the job site.</p>
<p><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-1003" title="forney_solidsurface_01" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/forney_solidsurface_01-300x208.jpg" alt="forney_solidsurface_01" width="300" height="208" />You can use a framing square and figure the angle given the distance either in or out with a cad program. Just hold the small leg on the longest wall and measure the distance that the square is out. This will be either at the corner if the angle is acute (less than 90 degrees) or at the end of the square if the angle is obtuse (more than 90 degrees). If you carefully hot-melt-glue a straight piece of ¼ inch plywood to your square, you can get a better angle measurement. Obviously you need to align one side of the wood to the outside edge of the square and the wood needs to be smaller than the leg so that you can hot melt it. Just input a line with those measurements in your cad program and read the angle. If you are using Vector CadCam, which once came with ShopBots, use the following steps. For an obtuse angle that you have measured at ½ inch out at a point 45 inches, you would place a point at x=0 and y=0 and another point at x=45 and y=.5. Then &#8220;add line between existing elements&#8221;. Double click on the line and the angle is 48.0026 degrees. Any other cad program should be capable of giving you the same information.</p>
<p>In Vcarve Pro, Part Works or Version 2 of Part Wizard you can accomplish the same thing. At this time there is no way to get the information in Part Wizard Version 1 and you will need to manually figure the angle. Unfortunately, I was absent the day my Geometry teacher covered this.</p>
<p>In Vcarve Pro or Part Works you select the draw polyline icon with the yellow dots. This brings up an input box. As in the example above you input X 0 and Y 0, select add, then X 45 and Y .5 select add and then right mouse click. Select the measure tool icon. Hover over X 0 Y 0 and the cursor changes to a circle with a plus in the center (meaning that it has snapped to the beginning of the line) left click to lock the line and move the cursor to the end of your existing line. When the cursor changes again, the angle will be in the box on the left. That is your angle. In Version 2 of PartWizard the input is identical, however the angle show up in the dialog box and now other steps are required.</p>
<p>Another method is to template the wall using either plastic, wood, or paper. Plastic sign material such as Coroplast is sold by solid surface suppliers and sign suppliers. The advantage of plastic is that you can write notes with a Sharpie and then erase them with solvent and reuse the material. It can also be folded and rolled for transportation.</p>
<p>With wood and hot melt glue you can fabricate a template. I like ¼ inch luan and I put supports between the two legs. You can use ¾ plywood and either screw it or glue it together. Note however, that templates made with wood can get very unwieldy and difficult to transport.</p>
<p>Paper, usually rosin paper which is available from a Lowes or Home Depot type store, has many advantages, it is: cheap, easy to transport and can be discarded after the job is complete. The easiest way to template using paper is to place it on the floor along the long wall. It will touch in at least one place. If one area of the wall is significantly out, place two other areas equidistant from the wall and scribe the paper to the wall. Cut the paper to fit and then place paper on another wall and do the same. Now place the first template against the back wall and the second along the other. Tape them well where they meet. In a U shaped kitchen you will need to do 3 walls. Four sided kitchens, which will have at least one door way may require 5 sides. Roll the paper up after making copious notes and get back to the shop.</p>
<p>An easy way to make a template for a top that is going into an alcove and needs to fit on the back and both sides is to take paper or plastic that is slightly smaller than the distance between the two sides. Center the template on the floor or cabinet and scribe an equal amount on the two sides. Say the width is 60 inches and the template material is 59.5 inches and you set your scribe for 1 inch, when you get to the shop all you need to do is over cut the material, center the template and run the scribe at 1 inch along lines that you scribed on the job site. Your lines are on the inside at the jobsite and the opposite at the shop.</p>
<p>Remember that it is difficult, if not impossible, to get a 24 inch item into a 24 inch hole. If your counter runs wider at the front, it should be a piece of cake. If you need to tip the top into the hole you need to account for the front edge, since it will be longer on the angle than straight. I use a small piece of plastic laminate on the end that tips down. The laminate avoids the top digging into the wall and should slip out with a little judicious prying. If a stud lands right at the front end of one edge, tip the top in the other way. Carefully, ever so carefully, is the way to do this. Solid surface should be at least 1/8th inch short for expansion so the plastic should come right out. With the last three methods of templating (Plastic, wood or paper) you will need to have the angles to use the ShopBot for cutting.</p>
<h5>Using the ShopBot</h5>
<p>I use the ShopBot to cut my corners and as much of the straights as I can. Since I only have an 8 foot bed I need to slide the material to finish my straight cut. Corners have to be at least 3 inches out and I normally use the 5 inches that a 30 inch wide material allows. The corner is cut with a ½ inch radius. If you look closely at picture below you will see what I normally cut on the ShopBot. The long L shaped piece on the right was cut including the corner radius and is a 91 degree angle. It is necessary to take the angle of the wall and use it in your initial cut. If you cut a true 90 degree corner, I guarantee that it will not fit properly. Small errors get magnified as the length increases. Your overhang will change from the accepted 1 inch or your back splash won&#8217;t cover. I use a ½ inch diamond bit. Diamond bits are expensive but have a much longer life. A spiral carbide bit will work just fine. Using the ShopBot for seams has proven to be way more work than I want to do and the way I seam makes the process quick and painless.</p>
<p><img class="size-medium wp-image-1004 alignnone" title="forney_solidsurface_02" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/forney_solidsurface_02-300x149.jpg" alt="forney_solidsurface_02" width="300" height="149" /></p>
<h5>Shop Stands</h5>
<p><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-995" title="shopstand001" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/shopstand001-300x224.jpg" alt="shopstand001" width="300" height="224" />I use the Dani stand with some exceptions (See picture). The basic stand information is available at Specialty Tools web site. (www.specialtytools.com). I simply nailed two blocks on the base instead of cutting the nice floor cutout and I bought elevator bolts from our local Fastenal dealer. The elevator bolts allow me to level the top much easier than using shims. It is paramount that you get your top flat and coplaner if not level. Any stress you glue into your top will come back to haunt you. The only problem with the elevator bolts is that if you turn your work over to put in a sink or build ups, you have to be careful about scratching. What ever marks you put into the top while fabricating you will have to take out. You can logically read into that last sentence sanding. I have cut a bunch (bunch is a number that I use when I&#8217;m too lazy to count) of 24&#8243; wood sticks and some (less than a bunch) sticks 36&#8243;. Twenty four inch pieces are use except where a sink will be. Then I use the 36&#8243;. I nail or screw the 24&#8243; sticks top and bottom on each side two on the front side and at least one on the back side. This makes the stands rigid and allows sanding and routing.</p>
<p>I have changed to a new ShopBot cut stand with sturdier legs and mortises that allow supports to be screwed to the stands. The bottom feet just slip into the dados in stands and give more stability than the offset angle feet on the old stands. At the end of these articles, I will have a dxf file with the stands and the feet. I have made the new stands 19 ¼ wide and 31 ½ high. The stands are 33 inches tall when the feet are attached. This allows 6 stands per sheet of plywood but if you wanted them to finish 36, just place two rows of 2 and turn the last perpendicular to the rows. This new stand is 3 to 4 time sturdier and solid. It can also double as a temporary work table and when unscrewed it will store flat on a cart. Note that the feet and the stand have matching dados that slip together the same way your index and middle finger on one hand can slip between the same fingers on the other hand.</p>
<p><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-996" title="shopstand002" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/shopstand002-300x224.jpg" alt="shopstand002" width="300" height="224" /> <img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-997" title="shopstand003" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/shopstand003-300x224.jpg" alt="shopstand003" width="300" height="224" /></p>
<h5>Seaming</h5>
<p>Now let’s take up my seaming method. In the picture below the two blocks of wood with the tips are nothing more than spacers for the router guide clamp. They are put with the tips between the two pieces of solid surface material to space the seam so that one only1/16th is cut from each side. With a ½ inch bit, tips measure 3/8. The flat area spaces the clamp on the left the proper distance to cut to the center of the seam. The reason that you only want to remove a little off both sides is twofold. First you will make it easier on both your arms and the router, and second, you will be less likely to bog the bit down and create a seam that isn&#8217;t mirrored, which is the whole point of the exercise.</p>
<p><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-1005" title="forney_solidsurface_04" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/forney_solidsurface_04-300x156.jpg" alt="forney_solidsurface_04" width="300" height="156" /></p>
<p>The picture below shows the seam ready to cut with the clamp indexed and the front and back U block glued in place. On the right is the MLCS Boomer Clamp 50&#8243; #9953. I use the 50 inch clamp since I do a lot of 36 inch bars which are too wide for the 36&#8243; clamp. To the left of the clamp and just under the top are the U shaped gluing blocks that make the whole thing work. The orange pony spring clamps are used to clamp the glued U blocks under the top while the hot melt glue is setting. The hot melt glue gun in the back dispenses the glue. (There are things you should be able to figure out on your own.) In the rear of the picture are two pony clamps that are used to get a good seal between the material and the glue block. Be sure to remove the clamps before routing because if you forget it will be very difficult to remove them after you start your cut. By supporting the two pieces from the bottom nothing is in the way when you cut the seam. Since these two pieces are at a ‘V’ I had to clamp the boomer clamp with two spring clamps.</p>
<p>The router is in the MLCS router plate (notice that the router base plate has a routed male bar that fits in the female slot in the clamp). With the plate and clamp the router is captive and makes a smooth cut along the entire seam. The 2nd picture below shows the cut being made as well as the glare from my head.</p>
<p><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-1006" title="forney_solidsurface_05" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/forney_solidsurface_05-300x182.jpg" alt="forney_solidsurface_05" width="300" height="182" /></p>
<p>There are many other systems for making a mirrored seam in solid surface, most of them expensive. Mostly they use some sort of clamps that hold the seam from the top and certainly get in the way if you are seaming close to a corner. The hot melt glue is quick and cheap plus you should have a couple of pieces of plywood lying around your shop. Most importantly, you are supporting from the bottom. The purpose of the blocks having a ‘U’ in the center is the same as not cutting through more than 1/16&#8243; of material, not bogging the router down. Of course, if your two pieces of material are significantly out of square, you will need to bring them into some semblance of square so that you follow your corner angle. After use, I use a vice and an old chisel (sharp old chisel) to remove the glue from the plywood U blocks. Simple and cheap. The blocks are free, glue is inexpensive and the clamp and router plate cost a total of $61.90 and shipping was free.</p>
<p>I clamp a piece of polypropylene plastic under one side of the seam for support as you push the two pieces together and to inspect your seam. Look closely at your seam and if all is well you need to scuff sand the edges. An acceptable seam should not allow a piece of paper through any area. Remove the plastic piece but keep close since it will be used during the gluing. Then sand with a shop made block which is a two pieces of wood joined at a 90 degree angle with 60 grit sandpaper glued to one side. Make sure the block is 90 degrees since you want a square joint. A few swipes should scuff up the joint. Don&#8217;t over do it or you can ruin your great looking seam. Denatured alcohol on a clean lint free WHITE rag should be used to clean any dust or dirt. Colored rags can ruin a seam by leaving a little dye behind. By the way, denatured alcohol is alcohol that is combined with a poison to make it unfit for human consumption. Now your joint should be mirror cut, sanded and cleaned. Assuming that you didn&#8217;t drink the alcohol, you now should be ready to glue the seam.</p>
<p>Next article will be about gluing seams, edges and sinks. Then we’ll cover sanding and installation.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2008/03/solid-surface-fabrication-part-1/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Pricing a Job</title>
		<link>http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2007/01/pricing-a-job/</link>
		<comments>http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2007/01/pricing-a-job/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>John Forney</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Notes from Forney's Shop]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shopbottools.com/?p=1013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ <p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"> <p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Over the years I have been asked many times “How do you bid a job?”  Well, here are the steps I take in formulating a kitchen bid.  I have one hard and fast rule about bids: I only discuss money once, at the beginning.   ...
<p>Continue reading >>> <a href="http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2007/01/pricing-a-job/">Pricing a Job</a></p>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<h2 style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><a name="Pricing_a_Job"></a></h2>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">Over the years I  have been asked many times “How do you bid a job?”  Well, here are the steps I  take in formulating a kitchen bid.  I have one hard and fast rule about bids: I  only discuss money once, at the beginning.  Unless the job changes substantially  I don&#8217;t change the price, either up or down.  Notice, I said substantially.  I  don&#8217;t use changes as a profit center.  By that, I mean I don&#8217;t use small  inconsequential changes as a reason to significantly raise the price.   Conversely, I don&#8217;t lower my price if a change is made that makes the job easier  or faster.  Many contractors live for change orders.  To me, a change order  should only be used when a large (read expensive) change is made.  One thing to  look for is that when a large change is suggested the customer will ask “Is that  easy?”  My stock response is “Are you asking me if I&#8217;ll be tired at the end or  is it expensive?”  Then I tell them that the answer to both questions is YES.   More often than not, that will end the conversation.  People assume that  anything easy is cheap.  Don&#8217;t get caught in that trap.  If they persist or  insist, give them a price for the change before starting.  If you receive a  deposit up front, get the same percentage for the change.  Now on to the steps I  take.</p>
<p><strong>Talk to customers first and look at the physical site.</strong></p>
<p>The first thing is just asking questions of the customer.  Remember,  they have been planning and thinking about this for quite a while.  You;  however, are new on the scene.  A new kitchen is a large expenditure and  deserves thoughtful suggestions.  I normally start by asking who will use the  space primarily.  Ignore that person at your own risk.  What will it be used  for?  Will it be used by a gourmet cook or simply to microwave cold leftovers?   Lots of baking?  Will it be a place for people to congregate?  Will they eat  there, and if so, every meal?  I normally try to ask these questions in the  space we are talking about.  It makes it a little easier to visualize their  answers and concerns.  Don&#8217;t forget traffic patterns.  How will people get in,  out and around in the space?  Will there be jams at the refrigerator or stove?   What do they want this kitchen to look like when it is done?  Then I ask the  really important question (the one no one likes to ask).  How much were you  planning to spend?  Often people will not want to answer the question and will  respond with we don&#8217;t know, we don&#8217;t have any idea.  None of which is true.  I  respond that we have to have some sort of ballpark and will throw out a very  large number, maybe $75,000.  They will say NO, NO.  You can respond by dropping  to $20,000 or $10,000.  At one point you will get some sort of answer.  If not,  you define the ballpark in large areas.  $10,000 to $20,000 or maybe $5,000 to  $10, 000, explaining to them that you need some guidelines.  I often use the  Cadillac and Yugo model.  Both are cars, sort of.  You should be able to come to  some ballpark figure.  If you get that rare customer who refuses to give some  boundaries it is my suggestion to thank them for their time and refer them to  someone who has too little grief in their life.  If people are so scared that  you are going to cheat them that they refuse to give you the information you  need, you really don&#8217;t have a customer.  On the other hand if a customer gives  you a $10,000 limit don&#8217;t be worried about giving them an honest price of  $12,500 to $13,500.  We all spend more than we plan and underestimate how much  we what we want costs.</p>
<p><strong>Draw layout.</strong></p>
<p>Now start the layout  process.  If you are drawing on the computer I suggest that you do it alone, not  with the customer there.  It is difficult to figure everything out while people  are talking and asking questions.  It is appropriate to ask for some time alone  to draw, even if you are at the house and working on a laptop.  Remember, this  is an expensive proposition and deserves thoughtful consideration.  It should  normally take 10 to 15 minutes to draw the kitchen using a laptop.  If you do it  by hand, this may be step you want to do in the shop.  This is just a rough  layout, not the final drawing.  Make sure that all things that won&#8217;t change are  properly placed and accurately measured (Windows, plumbing, doors and anything  that can&#8217;t or won&#8217;t be moved).  If you don&#8217;t have cabinet design software and a  laptop, I suggest that you make this a high priority.  People, women especially,  like to see pictures.  It might be that left brain right brain thing.  Now bring  the customer back into the conversation and start moving and changing things.   At this point I usually tell the customer that I will only ask “Are you sure?”  three times.  Then, if it is structurally sound, I&#8217;ll do it.  They, quite  correctly, get the idea that when I ask “Are you sure?” I don&#8217;t think it is the  best solution.  I have been wrong too many times to think that I know what is  best for the customer but I am the only professional at this appointment and  they expect input.  But try not to get to impressed with your ideas.  For  customers who have consistently bad ideas, you have the right to turn down the  job if you think will reflect badly on you.  Also, if you disagree with  something strongly, you can require a signed statement that your concerns were  made known and discussed and the customer decided to do it anyway.  This should  be used only in rare cases, were, while structurally sound, it is a terrible  solution.  People will never say “Hey, you know our kitchen would have been much  better if we had followed your advice.” They will say “We aren&#8217;t happy with our  kitchen” (usually in a loud voice while in line behind you at the grocery  store).  When you have an approved drawing and you have the correct information  in you laptop, giving them a price is a piece of cake.  However, if you don&#8217;t,  then excuse yourself and go back to the shop and figure your bid.</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><strong>***Note:</strong> you should consider getting a good layout program that automatically gives  pricing. I recommend KCDW because I have it.</p>
<p><strong>Appliances.</strong></p>
<p>Get the model numbers and manufacturer of the  appliances from the customer.  Look up the specs and installation instructions  on the Web.  Have the customer sign a copy of the paper with the model numbers  or put them in the contract.  Customers will be only to happy to change  appliances without letting you know of the switch.  Then it can be “I told you  about that” when it is too late and the job requires major changes to existing  cabinets.  I can&#8217;t stress how important it is to get the appliances nailed down  quickly and firmly.  I can remember three or four times over the last 30 years  that this has been a major problem, with no easy solution.</p>
<p><strong><span style="font-size: x-small;">Figuring a Price</span></strong></p>
<p><strong>Figure Material.</strong></p>
<p>Figure the amount of material needed to build the cabinets.  Don&#8217;t  forget waste.  I normally figure 15% waste and mistakes.  Remember to add  delivery charges or your time to pick up and deliver the items.  While I am not  a fan of paying delivery charges, I was astounded when I actually figured out  what it cost to pick something up.  Driving and running time is time you lose  working, so figure it at you labor rates.  It makes the small charges for  delivery pale by comparison.  On hardware, I figure it even.  If you screw up a  drawer slide too often maybe you should check into employment in the food  service industry, not everyone is cut out for cabinet making.  I don&#8217;t include  any decorative hardware such as knob or handles.  There is too much variation in  price and you&#8217;ll be stuck with a handle or knob that cost way more than you  figured.  I simply mark them up 35% including tax and delivery or drill holes  for items supplied by customer.</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><strong>***Note:</strong> The customer has to be there when I drill and has to show me the exact  placement.</p>
<p><strong>Labor Costs.</strong></p>
<p>This is the hard one.  Figure the  hours and then double it.  Then maybe triple it.  One thing is certain, you will  underestimate the amount of time it takes you to do anything.  You can take that  to the bank.  One good practice is every so often (you chose the interval)  attach a follower to the job.  By follower I mean a form (you choose the layout)  that goes everywhere with the job and you keep meticulous notes on time and  material.  You will be shocked at how much time it really takes.  How much you  charge for labor is up to you and the area you live in.  What does your labor  force make per hour?  Wait, don&#8217;t forget benefits, workers comp, vacations,  holidays and bonuses plus everything that goes to the government.  If you do  your own installations, remember employees get paid getting from your shop to  the job and usually back.  What I&#8217;m saying is “Don&#8217;t just figure how much per  hour you pay.”  Labor cost is much higher than that.  If you physically do all  or part of the work, don&#8217;t forget your hours, including the bid and layout  portion.  Your hourly rate shouldn&#8217;t be figured in at the profit area.</p>
<p><strong>Overhead.</strong></p>
<p>Overhead should be your fixed costs (rent,  insurance, utilities, payments etc).  Take this figure and divided by 30 days.   Figure the number of days to finish, then add a margin of safety (maybe 10% to  15%) and multiply by the overhead figure.</p>
<p><strong>Profit.</strong></p>
<p>It&#8217;s  not a bad word.  You have to decide what is reasonable to you and your  customers.  But you have to have it.  Something like 70 to 80 percent of  business failures aren&#8217;t from too little work but from too little profit.</p>
<p><strong>PIA.</strong></p>
<p>Now here is my favorite.  PIA stands for “Pain in the  Rear.”  You know the kind of customer I am referring to.  Problematic people.   Ones that will require more care than a normal bid would allow for.  I have a  couple of long time customers that have high PIA factors but have been with me  for a decade or more.  They require more time and hand holding and therefore a  higher factor.  My PIA starts at 10% and goes up.  I suppose you could put in a  reverse factor for the really easy ones, but I&#8217;ll leave that to you.</p>
<p><strong>The Bid.</strong></p>
<p>Adding all that up you should have a good bid.   I require a 50% deposit of everyone, including my mother.  I am not a bank, nor  do I borrow money to buy material for customers (even if I use my own money, I  am borrowing it from me.)  If the customer can&#8217;t be ready on time, I get up to  90% of the contract with the balance due on completion.  A good contract can  shortstop a lot of problems and can resolve issues that may come up.  I have to  admit that I don&#8217;t use a contract.  I am going to make the customer happy and in  over 30 years I have only returned one deposit and canceled the job.  I simply  give them an invoice that says “Cabinets as per specs.”  I do not recommend that  you do as I do.</p>
<p><strong>After the Bid.</strong></p>
<p>Take careful notes of the  conversations that you have after the deal is agreed to.  Since I use a computer  design program I put them into the job.  I normally ask the customer, just  before I take the deposit check, what they are expecting.  I do it then because  a little time has passed since we first talked about the job.  It is a good idea  to go over the job and make sure everyone is on the same page.  Some times  things get forgotten and are easy to change.  I have always thought that there  “are no good surprises in construction.”  To build a good business requires  staying in business.  If you don&#8217;t lose some of your bids you either are too low  or just damn good.</p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;">By the way I lost  a bid about two months ago.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2007/01/pricing-a-job/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>My First Thoughts</title>
		<link>http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2006/02/my-first-thoughts/</link>
		<comments>http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2006/02/my-first-thoughts/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2006 18:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>John Forney</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Notes from Forney's Shop]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.shopbottools.com/?p=1019</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>Before I really dig into CNC, I have a couple of things I want to address in this, my premier effort. If you are working without a guard on your table saw, get one. There is no tool that is used more often in a shop than the table saw and an unguarded saw  ...
<p>Continue reading >>> <a href="http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2006/02/my-first-thoughts/">My First Thoughts</a></p>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before I really dig into CNC, I have a couple of things I want to address in this, my premier effort. If you are working without a guard on your table saw, get one. There is no tool that is used more often in a shop than the table saw and an unguarded saw is an unnecessary danger to you and others. Also get a splitter with anti-kickback fingers. I use a Penn State Industries PSI Table Saw Dust Guard with a Biesemeyer 78-431 T-Square Anti-Kickback Snap-In Spreader on my very old Delta Unisaw. This is the same saw that cut off two fingers and severely damaged three others (if you consider a thumb a finger, as I do) from the left hand of one of my employees 20 some years ago. You see, I had been told that guards caused more accidents than they prevented. The day I picked those two fingers off the floor of my shop and put them into a cup of ice to take to the hospital, I realized that the person who had told me that was simply too lazy to take the guard off and replace it after making certain cuts. I felt like an idiot. Since that day, I have used a guard on my saw for every cut that can be made with a guard. When making dado cuts I often put on the one way Yellow Board Buddies. If I can&#8217;t work with the Board Buddies, I make a jig in the shop.</p>
<div id="attachment_1001" class="wp-caption alignnone" style="width: 294px"><img class="size-full wp-image-1001" title="forney_shop01" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/forney_shop01.JPG" alt="View of my shop" width="284" height="213" /><p class="wp-caption-text">View of my shop</p></div>
<p>Now to my favorite tool in my shop. This one has taken quite some time to zero in on, as I love all my tools. Since this is a ShopBot column, it would be nice if I could honestly say that it is my favorite, but while it is really up there, almost at the top, it lost out to my Bosch jig saw. The Bosch has stood me in good stead for the entire time I have been woodworking. I still have the original one I bought way back when. It has been really beat up, but I still use it sometimes when I am in a nostalgic mood. Now that I think about it, both the jigsaw and I are a lot alike, beat up and old, but still working. My newer models (all three) look better, work harder, but our relationship is “employer to employee”. My original is like “an old trusted friend”.</p>
<p>My second favorite tool is my old hand plane. Does this sound familiar, two of my oldest tools are my favorites. I think the reason I like that old hand plane so much is because it makes me feel like a woodworker. It is a Stanley 12-960 Low Angle Plane. It has lost its mouth adjustment. Again, like me, it has lost a lot of its younger appeal, but the old guy keeps working. For those of you that don&#8217;t use a plane often, try pulling it towards you when making a cut. You can control the cut better and it is easier to keep it and yourself balanced.</p>
<div id="attachment_1002" class="wp-caption alignnone" style="width: 310px"><img class="size-medium wp-image-1002" title="forney_shop03" src="http://www.shopbotblog.com/wp-content/forney_shop03-300x222.jpg" alt="My ShopBot" width="300" height="222" /><p class="wp-caption-text">My ShopBot</p></div>
<p>My next column and my first ShopBot file for you will be for a screw/misc. container that will hold 6 one pound coffee cans and have label holders and an overhead handle. The screw/misc. holder is to replace the two I made over 25 years ago. They were made in about 30 minutes and were to only last for one job, until I found time to make a new set. They have now served me well for over a quarter century, carrying probably more than 1,000 pounds of screws. Were it not for this column, I would more than likely never make a new pair. Despite that, I know that I will make two very nice new ones, but more than likely I will also still use my old well-worn friends.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2006/02/my-first-thoughts/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
	</channel>
</rss>

